Soliloquist: Thanks for the concise and clear explanation regarding problematic flags.

The example of the Catalan flag is the best one.

Regarding Turkish-Kurdish brotherhood: the word "brotherhood" is taboonand tantamount of blasphemy to the separatists. To realize their separatist project in a country that has become stable again after 10 years of civil war, they are trying tobcreate enemies at any cost. This is why: Algerians who claim they are Algerians are their enemies. Kabyles who claim theyvare Algerians are their enemies. Kabyles that are close to their movement but disagree with some of their ideas are enemies. Muslims are theirvenemies, and any person who argues with them is their enemy. They are victims to everuthing under the sun anyone who isnt a member of their racist separatist movement is their enemy. They jhave no brothers whatsoever except the members of their own fascist group.

Therefore dont tell them about brotherhood againm They could be brothers with just any separatist movement that has ideas similar ideas to their but not tobfellow Kables and Algerians that live next door to them buf simply choose no to support their extravagant ideas.

As for the "team": Aiji has noticed that too. Its like a pack of neo-Nazi thugs, an organized group working to furthef politicalbgoals and teaming up to bark and attack just anyone who dares talk back to them.

The flag of this potentially dangerous and racist separatist organization needs to be replaced on Tatoeba.

Sifaks: Saladin Kurdish - Kurdish flag for Turkey? Total nonsense.

MessDjaaf: the discission will be over once the flag of the potentially dangerous racist separatist organization is gone.

Mars, Japan, ths USA? Civilization? What's this guy talking about? We'rs talking flags here and this flag designed by a potentially dangerous and unpopular racist separatist organization has to be removed from this website that's entirely dedicated for the promotion of peace and knowledge.

Ah... that story of civilizational gap... a racist claim in itself. This is used by your imperialist masters to justify the destruction of other nations and peoples. Using imperialist propaganda statements hoping to please the members of Tatoeba who are from rich Western countries, eh? Hahaha... I don't think they would be impressed by you bain attempt to ridicule your fellow citizens by insinuating that they are civilizationally or culturally inferior to you just because they are against your racist fascist political organization. Playing the secularisf card wont impress anyone here. Youre not the only secularistz in Algeria nor in the world. Playing the Mr Civilized card wonf work either. You are racisr. You tried to question my Kabyleness on this same wall with your bunch of racist buddies and youre still continuing to spill your rage on Facebook. Have some respecr af least to yourself. Youre not more civilized than anybody else in Algeria, racisr.

MessDjaaf: You are already familiar with Belkacem's cheap, childish and obsessive personal attacks and despicable demonization campaign against me on Facebook. You too ars paying the price of talking back to their pack of pitbulls on that guy's Facebook page. This is just to expose his hypocrisy. A wolf in sheep's clothing.

OsoHombre: This flag is not welcome on this website at all, neither is the potentially dangerous political organization that designed it and adopted it. You should see the amount of hatred that they are pouring out against me on Facebook. Some of them have even called for my public lynching. I shall notify Tatoeba's admins about that as well so that they have an idea about how much more uncivilized they are on social networks. They asked if they could take my corpus on Tatoeba and I said no, so they started a demonization campaign against me. I and a group of fellow Kabyles didn't like that Kabyle be represented by the flag of a radical racist separatist flag, so we asked Tatoeba to replace it with a different language flag and they are now enraged. As I said a couple of weeks ago: if they are not doing politics here then it should be understood that it would be OK if the flag was changed, however they don't seem to be happy about that. They would claim something and do the complete opposite. I just think that Tatoeba should end this dispute as soon as possible by removing the flag of that potentially dangerous organization whose leader has called for the creation of armed militia. A possible prelude for a separatist armed conflict in Algeria. I strongly advise you to read more about that to get familiar with how dangerous this racist separatist organization is.

MessDjaaf: Thanks for asking for my opinion. I would go for the second flag, too since it represents the unifying Amazigh cultural flag with Kabyle's ISO code. This is the flag that could suit everybody, I guess.

Soliloquist: Thank you very much for the pictures of the flags. That was exactly what I suggested.

And with all this mayhem created by the separatists over the flag of their political organization, Tatoeba's members could also see how contradictory their claims are: on the one hand they would claim that they have nothing to do with politics and on the other hand they would bombard you with a barrage of racist comments and political attacks. Instead of just admitting that this flag doesn't belong here, they would keep on defending it. Their aggressiveness and hatred are clear as day too.

It's plain and simple: no politics = no political organization flag. The MAK is a potentially dangerous political movement. It is separatist, racist, Islamophobic and its leader calls for taking up arms.

Tatoeba is about language and linguistics. So no politics. No MAK flag.

For an alternative language flag for Kabyle I have the following suggestions:

1- Algerian flag with a white margin on the right and the KAB code on the margin.

2- Amazigh flag with a white margin on the right and the KAB code on the margin.

3- White flag with the KAB code on it.

Other suggestions are welcome.

MessDjaaf

AMAZIGH speakers of other dialects wouldn't create a mess. We can tag each sentence according to its dialect.

MessDjaaf

Tantala/tasenfelt (variant) taqbaylit ad d-tḥettem iman-nnes i yiman-nnes deg unrar utlayan. Mi ara ilint akk teɣbula (resources) tutlayanin s tentala taqbaylit, adennit imsiwlen n tentaliwin niḍen ad tt-qeblen. D acu kan, yal tamnaḍt tezmer ad tkemmel afares (production) n tsekla s tsenfelt-nnes tamnaḍant. Yeḍher-ak lḥal, tasekla d taẓuri, medden sɛan deg-s tilelli ad d-sɣenwen (create) ayen ay asen-yehwan, maca deg wayen yerzan idlisen n tmussni, tessefk tsenfelt tizeɣt (standard) yernu iban dakken d tantala taqbaylit ara d-yilin d tamezwarut deg waya.

Lḥaṣul, aṭas n ufares ussnan ay yellan yagi s tentala taqbaylit deg tesdawiyin n Tizi Uzzu ed Bgayet (tisras [theses]) yernu s wazekka, imezrawen (students) n Tbatent ad d-agmen seg-sent tamussni akken i yimahilen-nsen, yernu s waya, tantala taqbaylit ur tettili ara d tin meḥquren deg unrar-a, wanag d tin ara d-iḥettmen iman-nnes, ḥemmlen-tt kra neɣ keṛḥen-tt. Akka ay d-ttḥettiment tentaliwin iman-nsent s umata.

Ma yella s kra n uwfus n ussileɣ amsadur (professional training) ad yili s tentala-a yernu amdan, ansi yebɣu yili, yeɣs ad yelmed s tmaziɣt, ala s tentala-nni ara yelmed. Ass-a, ma yella Ibriṭaniyen ufan-d talkensit n yidlisen n ussileɣ ffɣen-d deg Yiwanaken Yeddukklen, ad ten-sqedcen yernu ur d-ttcetkin ara imi s "tanglizit tamarikanit" ay uran.

Aiji:
You have noticed that problem, and it's your message that I choose as a departure point to formally ask Tatoeba to change the flag of Kabyle on

the website.

@cueyayotl @MessDjaaf @BakirHamou @Nassimus @kouriet15 @Uyezjen @Ubezwi1 @samir_t @HocineBenamer @Mqidec

If the flag of the PKK can't represent the Kurdish language, then even the flag of the MAK (Movement of the Self-Determination of Kabylie) shouldn't and can't represent the Kabyle variety/language.

The MAK is a political movement which seeks the creation of an independent state in Kabylie. This political movement far from being popular in Kabylie and Algeria. If some of the members of the Kabyle variety/language aren't supporters of this openly separatist movement, then Tatoeba (as a website) should absolutely change this flag.

A few weeks ago, a member of the Kabyle variety/language team named Mqidec mailed me in private on Tatoeba and asked me if I could do anything to change the language flag for Kabyle. When he noticed that nothing was done immediately, he chose to leave the team and the website altogether and I felt that that was a loss for Tatoeba as a project.

My friend and colleague MessDjaaf also mailed me about this issue and that was one of the reasons that led him to leave the Kabyle team.

Some have told me that since the language I am contributing in on Tatoeba is Berber/Tamazight, then I shouldn't involve myself in this issue.

Well, I consider that I have the right to get involved into the sensitive issue for the following reasons:

1- As an Algerian citizen, I am Kabyle myself. The Amazigh variety I speak is Kabyle and as a Kabyle, I consider that I have my say in anything regarding Kabyle, Kabyles, and Kabylie in general.

2- Participating in the name of the Amazigh language shouldn't exclude me from participating in discussions and useful and valuable information exchange between me and the other Tatoeba members that are participating under the Kabyle variety/language label.

3- Since the MAK's (Movement for the Self-Determination of Kabylie) reputation has been significantly tarnished by the call of its historic leader, Ferhat Mehenni, last June, for the setting up of armed militia in Kabyle (in preparation for an armed conflict?), supporting this
potentially violent political movement could expose people residing in Algeria to legal issues. This is extremely important and Tatoeba shouldn't be dragged into an ongoing and potentially dangerous political issue that might also personally affect some of its members. I have been visiting the contributions of the Tatoeba members contributing under the Kabyle variety/language label but I was very reluctant to comment on them and offer help and advice or even ask questions and learn things simply because of that extremely sensitive issue.

This is why, no matter how passionate or overzealous some politicized members of the "Kabyle team" are, and no matter how sacred they consider the symbols of their separatist radical political organization, I personally consider that it is a mistake that Tatoeba accepts the use of this flag as a language flag on this website.

Here is a link to a newspaper article (in French) covering the call of Ferhat Mehenni, the founder of the movement, for the setting up of armed militia (euphemestically referred to as "constraint groups"):

http://www.lematindalgerie.com/...ps-de-securite

Here is a link to an article (in French, too) showing some reactions to Mehenni's call:

https://algeriepart.com/2018/06...imite-algerie/

For your reminder, back in 1991, and right before the beginning of Algeria's civil war started by armed Islamist groups, Islamist activists used to organize rallies, dressed in Afghan combat fatigues and marching like the troops of an army. Just months later, thousands of them became militants, took to the mountains, and started Algeria's civil war that cost the lives of more than 200,000 people. Therefore, such calls are unwelcome and political movements that stand behind them shouldn't be promoted in any way.

Keeping the MAK flag on Tatoeba could give a very bad image to the website especially for Algerians visiting or using/contributing to the website.

This is why I publically ask you, @cueyayotl, to please change this flag. If somebody from the "team" claims that they are apolitical, then they should accept the change of the flag and that would be an absolute proof of their "apoliticalness."


Thank you
Amastan

Atan yiwen seg yimagraden ay igerrzen akk ay ɣriɣ ɣef ulfus (possibility) n usdukkel n tutlayt tamaziɣt s usmatu (generalization) n yiwet n tentala:

https://www.djazairess.com/fr/elwatan/559363

Deg temsalt-a, yenna-d Mohand Akli Haddadou:

"Ula ma akk tintaliwin yella deg-sent wayen yellan d ucrik, amgerrad deg yimesliyen ed talɣiwin, ed umgerrad deg wawalen gar tentala ed tayeḍ yella-d d ameqran aṭas akken ad nessiweḍ ɣer yiswi-a.

"Yiwet seg tefratin ay yettwafernen i tutlayin am ta (am tbaskit neɣ takatalanit) d afran n yiwet n tentala ara yettwasemlen yernu ɣer-s ara d-knunt tentaliwin niḍen.

"Tantala-a tezmer ad d-tefruri ya seg yidis n umḍan n medden ay tt-yessawalen, ya seg yidis n umḍan n yinadiyen ed yisnugden ay d-yeffɣen fell-as neɣ yes-s. S waya, seg gar akk tintaliwin timaziɣin n Lezzayer, d taqbaylit ay d tantala ay d-yessemlalen snat-a n ṣṣifat."

Mohand Akli HADDADOU
Une Académie pour tamazight : Les tâches et les missions ---- Aɣmis n El Watan, 26 Dujembeṛ 2017

Ad as-d-alseɣ s tanglizit:

Even if all the Amazigh dialects have a common (lexical) heritage, phonetic, morphological and lexical differences remain too significant to unite them.

One of the solutions usually adopted for languages in this type of situation, like Basque or Catalan, is choosing one dialect to be promoted and converge the other dialects towards it.

This dialect could be chosen for the number of its speakers or the number of publications produced about it or in it. Nowadays, and among all of Algeria's Amazigh dialects, Kabyle is the one that has both characteristics.

Translated from French.
Mohand Akli Haddadou
https://www.djazairess.com/fr/elwatan/559363
El Watan daily newspaper, Algeria (26 December, 2017)

S waya, cikkeɣ dakken aṛmas-nneɣ (enterprise) deg usmel n Tatoeba yetbet dakken yesɛa llsas ussnan ed usdawan, am wakken ara yesɛu azekka, ladɣa deffir tlalit n Tkadimit Tazzayrit n Tutlayt Tamaziɣt.

S tumert ay ɣriɣ izen-nnek. S waya, kečč seg wid yettnadin tifratin tussnanin, akken yebɣu yewɛeṛ ucqirrew. Tanemmirt ɣef umagrad-nnek, daɣ.

Ɣef wakken ay la nettwali, tantala taqbaylit d nettat ay d tantala tamaziɣt ay ijehden akk. Deg-s ay d-yella yernu mazal yettili-d ufares aseklan ed wussnan d ameqran aṭas. S waya, inelmaden n tmaziɣt, tantala ay asen-yehwan lemden-tt deg uɣerbaz, tagara, adennit ad ɣren idlisen s tentala taqbaylit. S wawal niḍen, wid ara d-yeffɣen seg uɣerbaz ɣran tamaziɣt, ama deg Tmurt n Yizwawen neɣ deg Tbatent neɣ deg Ɣilizan, amur ameqran seg yidlisen ara d-afen beṛṛa i uɣerbaz, ad ten-afen s tentala taqbaylit yernu s tentala-a ara ten-ɣren. Ulac daɣ ccek dakken aṭas seg Yizzariyen ur yellin d Izwawen ara yeqqlen ttarun s tmaziɣt deg yiseggasen ay d-yetteddun, akked usmatu n usselmed n tutlayt tamaziɣt. S waya, ad teqqel tmaziɣt (neɣ tantala taqbaylit, s umata), d tutlayt ur sseqdacen ara kan yimsiwlen-nnes ineṣliyen (Izwawen), wanag ad tt-sseqdacen ula d Izzayriyen ur yellin d Izwawen. S waya, nezmer ad d-nini dakken aya d rrbeḥ ameqran aṭas ama i tutlayt tamaziɣt, ama i tmurt n Lezzayer.

Tagara, ad ak-d-fkeɣ aseɣwen (link) ɣer teẓrawit n teqcict-a taqsenṭinit ay izerwen tamaziɣt:

https://www.facebook.com/Tamazg...xNDcxNDA5NTMw/

Aya d anza (proof) ay ijehden dakken Izzayriyen bdan lemmden tutlayt tamaziɣt, tebda tettadef-asen deg wul yernu tamaziɣt tezmer ad tezreɛ deg tmurt n Lezzayer war uguren.

D acu kan, acqirrew ara d-yeggrin (akken ay yella yettini-d Mass Mouloud Lounaouci) netta d iriri n tmaziɣt d tutlayt n uɣrum. Akken ad taf tmaziɣt iman-nnes deg tmurt-nnes akken iwata, yessefk ad tesɛu tamlilt (role) deg tmetti neɣ amkan deg wulzuz (market) n tutlayin. S waya, cikkeɣ dakken ayen ay yebda Useqqamu Unnig i Timmuzɣa yetteg-it s umyalel d uɣlif u ulmud imineg (higher education) ed ussileɣ amsadur d ayen igerrzen. Aseqqamu Unnig i Timmuzɣa la yettmahal ed uɣlif-a akken ad d-heyyin ahilen n ussileɣ (training) amsadur s tmaziɣt. S wawal niḍen, s wazekka, ad qqlen yilemẓiyen izzayriyen zemren ad lemmden isaduren (professions) s tmaziɣt yernu ta d yiwet seg tɣawsiwin ay igerrzen akk ay izemren ad ttewgent i lmend n yiriri n wazal i kra n tutlayt deg tmetti-nnes. Ur tseɛɛu ara tmaziɣt azal n tidet ɣer tmetti arma d asmi ara teqqel tesseččay aɣrum.

Alexmarcelo & Impersonator

I think that we should let the corpus be just natural. Names, pronouns... it shouldn't matter much. Also when I try to avoid a certain type of sentence, I often don't find much to translate.

@sabretou

He's just trying to make fun of the thing :-)

Un gran corazón y un enorme abrazo para Alán y Rocío... Alán es un verdadero campeón de la paz :-)

Good night Grendayzer.

Trang, thank you. I am proud to be a member of tje community and the project that I shall continue to serve with the utmost devotion. There is a solution to everything and I have faith that things would eventually be solved in such a way that would suit everybody.